Am I the only one choking on the word ‘Republican’ these days? Eisenhower was a Republican. Nixon and Reagan were Republicans. Gerry Ford was a Republican. George H.W. Bush was a Republican. Not one of them – not one (ummm, maybe Nixon) – would have stood for the truly degenerate behavior of the audiences at the two recent debates. In the first one, when Brian Williams asked Perry if he had any hesitations signing death orders for 234 people, the audience erupted with gleeful applause as soon as Williams said 234. I posted the video here and said that it broke my heart.
Duane at The Erstwhile Conservative (a fine writer by the way) tells us today:
Patti Davis, the daughter of conservatism’s number one icon, said she remembered the first time her father, governor of California, had to order a state execution:
“He and a minister went into a room, got down on their knees and prayed.”
He also points to this from Reagan’s tombstone:
. . . there is purpose and worth to each and every life
(I think Reagan’s politics hurt this country. Deeply wounded us. But I’ve read his letters and know that he was also a man of personal grace and humility.)
Last night I recoiled in shame and horror when the debate audience topped the earlier cheering for executions. Here’s more from Duane on that subject:
Paul’s answer, which essentially was that such an unfortunate fellow [very ill with no insurance] should rely on volunteers and churches for his care, was drowned out by shouts of “Let him die!” from the Republican debate-watching crowd.
Let—Him—Die.
I’m reminded of former congressman Alan Grayson’s presentation on the House floor in 2009:
“If you get sick in America, the Republican health care plan is this: Die quickly.”
Yeah, I remember that too.
You can have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, or democracy. But you cannot have both.
Whatever Works 
I’m all for repugs showing their true colors!
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Snowing yet?
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The word conservative somehow has taken a new turn. Growing up, I interpreted a conservative as an individual who was cautious by nature, highlighting the negative side of something new and advocating a go-slow approach.
These days, conservative seems to be the new word for thinking 12th century in the 21st.
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Hello Ajay – welcome. Yup, exactly. Perhaps they could adopt as their new party slogan:
“Let’s roll back the last century!”
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Can you imagine what 2012 will be like?
Get those 10 months over with quick!
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The GOP and their Tea Party goons have become a horrifying and shameful parody of America. The torch-waving, lynch mob vibe given off by their supporters at every single event shows how pervasive the general bigotry and anti-intellectualism are within the ranks of today’s Republican base. Indeed, the moderate Republican has become a pariah within the party. The Tea Party has become the GOP’s Mujahideed. The Republican’s armed, financed,and trained them to destroy Barack Obama and the Democratic Party in 2012. What they fail to realize is the Modern Prometheus lesson taught to the world by the abandoned, yet still armed and trained “freedom fighters”. The monster always finds its way home and it is seldom pleased with its creator.
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Hi David – I like that thought. May they indeed turn upon their masters . . .
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Wow. It’s even worse than I thought–this is horrifying. It is fascism in the making.
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eurobrat: I think it’s even beyond fascism. Universal health care (you probalby know this) was first established in Germany in the 1800’s. The 18-fracking-00’s! And they’ve had it, still do, ever since. Even Hitler didn’t change that. (Of course, he was big into the execution thing).
The kind of thinking we’re seeing lately, the stuff these people cheer for – it looks more like budding anarchy to me.
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Or a return to some kind of caveman, tribal dog-eat-dog existence, perhaps? Why on earth would anyone want to go back to that? It boggles my mind.
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It’s pretty unbelievable. I think all these people think of themselves as temporarily down on their luck billionaires or something. I don’t want to live in a country where we let people die on the streets. Not sure why they do.
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Read Duane’s post, and commented.
As I said there, some of those older Repubs, I actually respect.
These new guys are like “New Country” music. Phony, and they all sound the same.
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glad to hear you say that about ‘country’ music. I may be New York born, but I loved the authentic stuff. We used to be able to tune in WWVA from Wheeling West VA on the radio and that stuff was wonderful. And so mournful and soulful and deeply touching. Now it’s just old rock with cowboy hats or a lot of makeup.
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With the Republicans winning two special elections, one in NYC and the other in Nevada, this could be a barometer of what the electorate will be doing next November of ’12.
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It’s indeed reason to worry. I did hear from friends in NY that the Dem runing for Weiner’s seat was a terrible terrible candidate and a worse campaigner.
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But that can’t be all that’s going on. Apparently that’s been a Dem district for 88 years!!! Criminey.
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Chew on this Moe…..
Capital Punishment ALWAYS polls above 50%……
ALWAYS……
??????
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I know. Just means we’re a bloodthirsty country. And very very Old Testament with all tht eye for an eye stuff.
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The Economy and Obama lackadaisical efforts at being Political have indeed hurt his polling numbers….
Thank Goodness he has finally started campaigning against the
GOP ‘Do Nothing’ Congress members on Jobs……
WTF did he wait so long????
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james, I don’t think there’s a Dem in the countr who could answer htat question!!
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Whoa Moe! Let’s just look at some real heartbreaking stuff here … and everyone might get off your arrogant high horses and realize there are “people” that forfeit their right to life by taking someone elses. Here is just a few:
On June 15, 2010, the state of Texas executed David Powell for the 1978 murder of police officer Ralph Ablanedo. Powell shot Ablanedo at least four times with an AK-47. The execution of Powell brought relief to Ablanedo’s family, who had been waiting more than three decades for justice to be served.
On October 21, 2010, the state of Texas executed Larry Wooten for the 1996 murder of 80-year old Grady Alexander and his 86-year-old wife Bessie. Wooten stabbed the elderly couple and slit their throats, nearly beheading them. Wooten also beat Mrs. Alexander with a pistol with such force that the grip and portions of the trigger mechanism broke off. To add insult to injury, Wooten then robbed the Alexanders of over $500 in cash.
On February 22, 2011, the state of Texas executed Timothy Wayne Adams for the 2002 murder of his 19-month old son, whom he twice shot in the chest. Adams’ attorneys maintained that the shooting was brought about by “an emotional crisis” when he learned his wife was going to leave him. As if killing a defenseless child is a natural response to an emotional crisis.
On July 7, 2011, the state of Texas executed Humberto Leal Garcia, an illegal immigrant from Mexico, for the 1994 abduction, rape, and murder of a 16-year old girl named Adria Saveda. Garcia sexually assaulted Saveda with a piece of lumber and then crushed her skull with a 35-pound piece of asphalt. When Saveda’s body was found, the piece of lumber was still protruding from her genitalia.
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Also, your post is used way out of context; The debate had nothing to do with Texas administering the death penalty to freaks like the few I highlighted above.
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Not out of context at all C&H. That audience cheered at the first mention of “234 executions”. They didn’t care who was executed, how dire their crimes or if there was a possiblity that an innocent had been executed. They just relished the idea. In my book, that’s bloodthirst.
The people who get the death penalty are often guilty of horrendous crimes. But that’s not the issue. The issue is the death penalty itself. I know it has support in this country and I am deeply disturbed by that. But the state should not execute. Period. The state has every right to make a criminal forfeit all his civil rights and to put him in prison for the rest of his life. But the State does not have the right to make a person forfeit his life.
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Moe, the person who commits the crime forfeits his/her right to live; not the state.
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Well, that’s quite a novel bit of legal theory Steve. Nothing in law or history or philosophy – at least not in free societies – says that a criminal forfetits their right to life. Not even for the worst crimes.
We have one of the highest crime rates in the deveioped world and we are the only country left in the entire developed world that permits capital punishement. Kind of makes me wonder about that ‘developed’ part.
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And in my opinion the “horrendous” crime IS the issue. The death penalty assures everyone that person will never commit another horrendous crime again. Also it’s retribution; just retribution.
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Steve – I don’t beleive in retribution. I beleive in justice. They’re not the same thing. (what’s with the new gravatar – I cant’ tell what it is.)
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Dear Moe, retribution is getting what one deserves for a dastardly deed, and I firmly believe the people I indicated got that. Just not soon enough.
Thats a little wolf. The Mad Jewess uses that on her blog roll for my site. I borrowed it. Hers is animated. Good to “see” you again Moe. You’ve always been my favorite liberal! 🙂
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David Belk ,
” The GOP and their Tea Party goons have become a horrifying and shameful parody of America. The torch-waving, lynch mob vibe given off by their supporters at every single event shows how pervasive the general bigotry and anti-intellectualism are within the ranks of today’s Republican base. ”
That is simply untrue. Most Tea Party rallies have been extremely peaceful and when over, usually there is not even any trash. Contrast that with the mob who took over the Capital of Wisconsin during the latest unpleasantness. They left the Capital a trash filled heap. Or the mob that trashed a grain export terminal in Washington.
Your description more correctly fits those groups and they are your people.
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Okay Alan, let’s examine the content of my statement juxtaposed with your retort. Firstly, my statement, “torch-waving, lynch mob vibe…” Vibe is synonymous with feeling and therefore implies the metaphorical nature of the modifiers “torch-waving and lynch mob”. I am sure that most TP rallies are peaceful, as they are generally attended by like minded people. However, one may argue that a group of people displaying racist and inflammatory imagery and text (often poorly spelled) may be called into question as to its peaceful nature and “group vs. mob” status.
Let us now move on to the phrase, “general bigotry and anti-intellectualism…” TP candidates and supporters are staunch deniers of climate change and evolution, both of which are overwhelming supported by the scientific community (smart people). TP’ers also often refer to those supporters of empirical science (smart people) as elitists (smarty pants). That certainly seems anti-intellectual. The widespread use of revisionist history and ignorance of Constitutional law is just sauce for the goose. As to the general bigotry, simply reference a random sampling of placards, tee shirts, or immigration legislation put forward by the TP. “Your people” indeed.
Now we come to your most curious counterpoint. That is to state that TP rallies, which are generally small, one-day affairs, practice better grounds keeping than a long-term, worker’s rights protest which I am certain was very “unpleasant” for those people who were having their rights revoked under completely false pretenses, Of course, they are certainly tidier than a group of angry citizens who, under cloak of darkness, seize upon the cargo of their common oppressor and spill it from its transport as a symbol of their solidarity and independence. A most unpleasant display, to be sure.
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The people who are for the death penalty, (for which I’m against) are the same ones that are against abortion. No way can they call themselves Pro Life. Its a contradictory in its entirety.
To clap and cheer and yell Yeah!, for people to die because of no insurance, and 234 people executed, is sick.
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David Belk ,
To smear the Tea Party because your good friends at MSNBC were able to one or two signs with a disrespecting picture of the President, is wrong .
The Tea Party is a loose coalition of groups whose uniting cause is less government and lower taxes . There are some hard core Global Freaking Warming deniers, such as myself sprinkled in, but that is not what makes them Tea Partyers .
You are making excuses for the thuggery and the piggishness of groups on your side. When your guys have a riot next time have them clean up after themselves, okay.
Ms. Holland,
I have neglected your salient point. About those vile, vile people who cheered Gov. Perry signing death orders for murderers.
Rick Perry did not order those prisoners to be executed. A governor does not have that power . A judge and jury, did that . The Governor allowed the sentences to be carried out, that is all . And you find the people who cheered that fact are vile. When Obama ordered Osama executed, I cheered when I heard it was carried out. I only wish the guy had suffered a lot more. Now Osama was not given a trial. Osama was not found guilty by his peers . Osama did not have years of appeals. Obama ordered a bullet to the brain and I cheered his decision. I am extremely vile.
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There’s no Global Warming? Take a good look at the North Pole, where the polar bears, are struggling. The ice caps on Greenland are slowly disappearing. The drought conditions in Texas, where lakes and streams are dried up. A good chunk of Texas looks like burnt toast, and it will only get worse, if they don’t get any substantial rain fall. I could go on. Dust storms in Phoenix, record high temps throughout most of the country. That’s not global warming along with the other things I mentioned. Alan, wake up to reality, its their in black and white, and there’s no denying it.
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In case you haven’t read it, there’s a really good (and very long) post on Truthout by Mike Lofgren, who quit after 28 years as a Republican Congressional staffer, basically because he believes the Republicans have gone completely over-the-top wacko. He presents some compelling arguments that the GOP now resembles more an apocalyptic religious movement that a political party.
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Very good article. I posted outtakes this morning.
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an unfortunate fellow [very ill with no insurance] should rely on volunteers and churches for his care
Moe, you understand that the question was asked to an individual who is running for public office? And as such, was asked from the perspective of that public official? There is a dramatic difference in how I would answer that question as an individual citizen and then as a President of the United States.
For example, if I were asked should kids go to church on Sunday. My answer as a private citizen dad would be, “Yes. I think that going to church when you are young is a profoundly important aspect of growing up. It teaches how to be part of a community, it teaches us that we should give, and sacrifice and help our fellow man. Yes, I think that kids should go to church.”
However, as a political candidate, I would answer that question, “No. I do not think it is the role of the State to mandate that kids go to church on Sunday. Or Monday or any day. Or even believe in a God. Or, if they do, that they go to church to worship.”
Such is the nature of this question.
Are there any among us, ANY, that would deny a young man in the prime of his life any help that we could offer? I dare say not. Each of us on this board would most likely donate to his cause, his condition. And that is as it should be. The SOCIETY should have it within it’s heart to care for it’s own. But that is WAY different than mandating it through the coercive force of government. Further, this young man was not wronged in any way. He had the opportunity to purchase insurance that would cover him. There is no mention that he couldn’t afford it. In fact, the question was posed that he CHOSE not to buy it.
I offer that there i no more sublime love of mankind than caring for a neighbor. But there is no more distortion of that charity than forcing me to contribute to yours.
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pino – I made no judegemnt on what Ron Paul said, although I think it to be simplistic in the extreme.
My (and Duane’s) comments were about the audience and their reaction to the question. As with the execution question, they seemed all too willing to toss aside their less fortunate fellows.
[there i no more sublime love of mankind than caring for a neighbor] – those two audiences showed no love for mankind. Their was not a philisopical nod of agreement. Theirs was the roar of the crowd in a Roman colisseum.
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My (and Duane’s) comments were about the audience and their reaction to the question. As with the execution question, they seemed all too willing to toss aside their less fortunate fellows.
Ahh, fair enough. The capital punishment response from the crowd was especially troubling for me. Even if I were for the death penalty, and I’m not, such a roar, as you said, was over the top.
The other response…..it may have been a “roar” as well, or perhaps, it was a partisan helping Ron. Ron Paul, wanting to be elected, couldn’t say that answer. It has to be couched in more acceptable words.
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I just hate it when we agree!!! 🙂
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pino,
Your point is well written and well received. I too would like to believe that anyone, when faced with the suffering of another, would do anything in their power to help. The problems with that are that they don’t and they won’t. I have been in a situation where I required a surgical procedure to repair a debilitating injury. I was without insurance at the time as I could not afford COBRA rates as I waited for insurance from my new employer to initiate. I sought help. The state I reside in offers absolutely nothing in the form of medicaid save for injured persons who do not fall into categories such as children, elderly, etc. I sought help from teaching hospitals, I wrote my Congressmen. I begged at the altar of faith based charity. What I got was nothing apart from being in worse condition for the wait. Eventually, I was able to secure a loan, at ruinous interest, to repair my spine and return me to the workforce.
My experience is hardly isolated. Private charity will NEVER care for all of those who need. The larger that number of sick and disabled becomes, the greater the drag on the workforce and the economy. Contributing to a public option is not really a charity at all. It is a small investment in a more fluid and healthy economy. The class of poor created by the colossal cost of healthcare is growing the wealth divide exponentially. I am not advocating a socialist state. However, the economy and democracy as we know it cannot function in a population of 300 million if it is bereft of a middle class.
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We only pretend that charities and churchs can, or even will, manage those in need. That’s a sort of ficitonal ideal of the small town where everyone knows everyone and everyone is kind. And Andy Griffin is sheriff. The idea that it would work in a multi ethnic nation of 300+ million people is a pipedream.
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Ergo David, I agree with you.
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David,
I find it very interesting that none of the Republicans debating on this site have commented on your real-life experience. A little too much fact-based information, perhaps?
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There’s some aspect of the conservative mind (religious or not) that refuses to accept the role of randomness in human events, that believes our fate can be controlled through our own (usually moral) agency, that our life circumstances are, not just our responsibility, but very much the result of our own prior decisions.
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Private charity will NEVER care for all of those who need.
Perhaps not, but it will care for a great deal.
And really, from a macro point of view, the private charity/personal responsibility aspect will generate a much “healthier” society that the one based on State sponsored charity.
Neither system will save everyone, but one certainly will save more.
We only pretend that charities and churchs can, or even will, manage those in need.
Moe, tsk tsk. You make it sound like the government does it better.
That’s a sort of ficitonal ideal
State run systems are failing all over the world.
A little too much fact-based information, perhaps?
What fact based information are you referring too? The idea that an individual has had a tough go of it makes the whole system fail? If that were the case, no system would stand your test.
There’s some aspect of the conservative mind (religious or not) that refuses to accept the role of randomness in human events, that believes our fate can be controlled through our own (usually moral) agency, that our life circumstances are, not just our responsibility, but very much the result of our own prior decisions.
As the number of people in the group grows, this is true. While not everyone who studies hard, works hard, goes to bed early and wakes up early succeeds, it is generally true. Generally.
You liberals feel that when someone who doesn’t do ANY of the above should have the ability to demand the results of the productive among us. I certainly acknowledge the unfortunate. You, however, refuse to acknowledge incentives.
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[You liberals feel that when someone who doesn’t do ANY of the above should have the ability to demand the results of the productive among us.]
On the contrary, we liberals feel that when someone who does ALL of the above and then gets screwed by the actions of some moron armed with a spreasheet, calling himself “productive” when in fact all he “produces” is asset bubbles and misery for millions, then the victim should be protected from the actions of the “wealth producer”, the same way they should be protected from any thug wielding a knife or a gun.
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lol. @pino – you sound like Queen Marie Antoinette of France – “If they can’t buy bread, let them eat cake.”
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you sound like Queen Marie Antoinette of France
Really? That was your take away from:
Serious?
Lemme ask you, is there any decision that any person can make that if it turns out poorly from them that your government shouldn’t solve?
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Don,
” Take a good look at the North Pole, where the polar bears, are struggling. ”
Do you have evidence of Polar bear numbers going down? How do you know they are struggling ? Somebody takes a picture of a polar bear on a chunk of melting ice ? From the incidences of them attacking humans, they seem to be doing all right.
” The drought conditions in Texas, where lakes and streams are dried up. A good chunk of Texas looks like burnt toast, and it will only get worse, if they don’t get any substantial rain fall. I could go on ”
Wow, a drought in Texas. You are right. That’s never happened before .
” Alan, wake up to reality, its their in black and white, and there’s no denying it. ”
When I and others have posted cold weather events in places that are normally warm, or unusual cold in temperate places, you guys come back and say that weather is not climate.
You cannot have it both ways .
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The average temperature of the planet is increasing. Period.
The average increase in temperature creates shifts in weather patterns resulting in changes in normal weather patterns. Weather is not climate, it is a function of climate.
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David says it right. The measure is the planet. Every measurement of the last 50 years makes it very clear that the globe is warming. Seen the floods in Pakistan Alan? Take a look. Worst they’ve ever had by a huge factor. It may mean 10million people displaced.
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Do you have a blog, that all of us can be enlightened by your right of center wisdom can read and comment on?
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You comment on so many blogs, and people time after time prove you wrong, but you still don’t get it. The world is changing rapidly, but you just don’t see it, or you go into denial, and believe what the rest of the right wingers have to say.
I guess your heroes are Limbaugh, Wall Street Journal and Fox News.
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@moe
I believe in certain cases execution is the humane thing to do. Afterall we put rabid dogs out of their misery, why not do it for the suffering human being. And make no mistake, some humans suffer with certain non rehabilitative illnesses. Here is one sick individual I would have no problem pulling the lever for. By the way, Im also pro choice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clifford_Olson
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HI TitforTat: There will always be monsters out there that we might want to put a bullet in. I understand that completely. It’s one thing for an individual to exact ‘retribution’ (to use Steve’s word from above). It’s quite another thing when a government does that. Government’s job is to administer justice. The death penalty is applied very unevenly – a 19 year old who shoots a copy while high on drugs is getting hte same sentence as one of those monsters who rapes children and tortures and kills. They are not the same thing and they should not be treated the same.
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‘shoots a cop’, not a ‘copy’
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The death penalty makes no sense from a legal standpoint either. Any other form of punishment, if metered out unjustly, may have its damages compensated directly to the punished. Even someone who is wrongfully incarcerated for the majority of their life may seek civil damages for what has been taken from them. You cannot apologize to a corpse.
It is unethical by any standard to demand payment which you are incapable of returning to the payer in any currency.
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@Moe
That is why I am for applying it for certain cases. Those cases would have no doubt. The physical evidence would be undeniable and it would also include verification(admission of guilt) from the guilty party. It would also be clear that they would do it again if given the opportunity. In these instances the death penalty makes perfect “Humane” sense because it is beyond obvious that the perpetrators are suffering an illness that not only makes them miserable but it also allows the possibility of it to be spread to the unsuspecting public if they escape. It is completely inhumane to lock said individual up for life so they can entertain these perverse violent thoughts hoping to one day use them again.
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Well, I guess we’ll disagree. I can hardly remember the last time I heard about anyone excaping from a max security prison.
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One of the problems with retributive justice with regards to the death penalty is the fact that every human has only one life, and once someone has taken more than one life, they have surpassed the limit of retributive justice in the sense that they cannot be made to pay in full for what they have taken.
Eye for an eye no longer can apply, because it is no longer possible.
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Ms. Holland ,
” The measure is the planet. Every measurement of the last 50 years makes it very clear that the globe is warming. Seen the floods in Pakistan Alan? ”
So you say this has never happened before ?
Don,
” You comment on so many blogs, and people time after time prove you wrong, but you still don’t get it. ”
Making contrary statements do not constitute proof . And you don’t answer me on your blog .
” The world is changing rapidly, but you just don’t see it, or you go into denial, and believe what the rest of the right wingers have to say. ”
I say those changes would happen anyway . You can’t prove they would not .
” I guess your heroes are Limbaugh, Wall Street Journal and Fox News. ”
My secret is out . Add to that National Review and Charles Krauthammer.
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Alan,
You maintaining that the nature and rate of climate change measured over the last half century is a glowing example of the anti-intellectualism I spoke of in a previous comment. I could maintain that my unruly dog, after biting my neighbor, is possessed by a malevolent witch and therefore blameless. You cannot prove that she isn’t…nyah, nyah, nyah.
Your statement is perfectly consistent with the far right’s go to position of making it up as they go along. Your position lacks any empirical support, so you sidestep this by maintaining that it is valid simply because it cannot be ruled out as an eventual outcome. I am quite certain that the picture hanging above this desk will eventually fall. When this will occur is extremely difficult to predict. Indeed, I cannot “prove” that it will until it does. However, if I apply the human variable (i.e. me removing the nail or yanking on the bottom of the frame), I can observe that the picture has fallen, how long it took, how far it fell, etc. I can then compare it to the other pictures that I wasn’t foolish enough to pull down in the past.
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ABOUT the nature of…excuse my typo.
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Do you also consider a strong majority of the American public to be vile? The death penalty is strongly supported in this country and that was particularly the reaction you witnessed in response to the “vile” question of the moderator.
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No I don’t. Honest people have honest disagreements and we all accept that as part of living in a free society.
But that audience sounded like what I imagine the people in the stadium sounded like in Rome when they cheered the lions against the christians. They like blood. That is vile.
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