Tomahawks being dropped on Libya. I’ll adopt a wait and see attitude – until Monday. But for now – we are out of our frackin’ minds to even take a chance on an expanded war (and the French have already had a Mirage shot down).
Remember what George Will said.
You can have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, or democracy. But you cannot have both.
Whatever Works 
But for now – we are out of our frackin’ minds to even take a chance on an expanded war
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pino – it’s eerie indeed. The difference is that Bush actually had more standing to go into AFghanistan. He f**ked it up when he abandoned it for his wet dream , Iraq. But he had cause to go in.
Libya? Not so clear.
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pino,
If President Obama is acting more and more like President Bush in attacking Muslim nations, I have to wonder when our liberal friends will say that President Obama is just trying to steal their oil. That’s what they said about Bush when he went into Iraq. I wonder just how much oil we ever got out of Iraq ?
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This whole scenario stinks of the old maxim “damned if you do, but damned if you do not”.
Had the West simply sat on our collective buts and done nothing to stop the massacre, it would be percieved as Rwanda all over again and the international community would have accused us of sitting idly by while a madman murdered his own people. Now that we are going to do something, the very same group of people aforementioned will now whine “imperialism” and “oil grab” – of which there sadly will be some of by whatever energy cartel that swoops in for the carrion when the sand settles.
The Arab League would not do the dirty deed; especially as many (but a shrinking number) of its members are also feeling the democratic rising that ousted Mubarak, so it only makes sense that they will criticize whatever action is taken in order to deligitimize the uprisings.
Then, of course, there is the hypocricy built into so-called international law; the UN will authorize (provided that Russia and China don’t play their Security Council vetoes) the overthrow of the standing government of Libya on humanitarian grounds and on the doctrine of “Responsibility to Protect” while the barbaric regimes of North Korea, China, Burma, Zimbabwe, and the Ivory Coast continue to commit oppression and genocide. But of course, to propose a regime change, especially in China and Russia, would simply not fly in that assembly of hypocricy and BS known otherwise as the UN.
So long as there is no Western ground invasion, it at least looks like, on the surface, that it is meant to stop the massacre. But opponents of even this action will point to international hypocricy. In addition, geopolitics will taint any effort for the people of Libya to choose their future regardless of what happens.
This whole situation is a sadistic crapshot – I really don’t envy Obama, Cameroon, Sarkozy, Merkel, or any other Western leader for being forced to play into this no-win scenario. Whatever they do, a large amount of people will be murderously enraged at their actions.
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D.I.D. – that’s as good a run down of the present geo political dilemna as I’ve seen. Maybe we could get a few of our Wolf Blitzer bots (my teeth hurt! my teeth hurt!) to read it and learn a little something.
I remember when Bush was elected in ’00, my brother looked at Bush/Cheney and said ‘well so begins the last desperate gasp of the fossil fuel based economy.’ The stuff will either run out or get too expensive (extraction, wars, 9/11) for us. But in the way of the West since 1980 or so, we’ll just ignore it till it bites us in the butt.
Remember Reagan ripping the solar panels off the roof of hte White House when he came into office.
There’s no tomorrow to these guys – it’s all today.
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Well, here it is – the ultimate ‘lose if you do, lose if you don’t’. From memorandum just now : “Arab League criticizes Allied air strikes on Libya”
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iRRC-Ij_xoxpHpSxJd-LVDd1JHXQ
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as there is no Western ground invasion, it at least looks like, on the surface, that it is meant to stop the massacre.
By framing the goal in that way, we are implying that the regime can stay. As long as the killing stops, he gets to stay.
Whatever they do, a large amount of people will be murderously enraged at their actions.
And it would seem that those groups most upset are going to be part of his base. It’s the Left that would be upset with him for letting him slaughter his own. AND it’s the Left that would be upset with him for going to war.
While the Right is upset [his lack of what I think is leadership is upsetting] we are TOTALLY alright with going to war to help innocent people. We are also alright with making the decision that America can’t engage in every single issue globally. What we DO get upset about is the double standard. While many folks are giving Obama a pass, there was no such pass for Dubya.
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“By framing the goal in that way, we are implying that the regime can stay. As long as the killing stops, he gets to stay.”
That is the principle of “State Sovereignty” in conflict with the principle of “Responsibilty to Protect”. I’m not defending or excusing the existance of dictatorships, nor am I happy with the notion that there are many people living under egomaniacal tyrants. But those are the facts, and except through a massive war that may destroy all of humankind, they cannot be changed under the current circumstances.
However, a no-fly zone may be all that is needed to break Gaddafi’s hold on power. Most of the reports that I have heard coming out of Libya suggest that the only significant advantage that Gaddafi has militarily over the rebels is heavy weaponry, especially airpower. If his airpower is neutralized, then he will either be forced to call genuine negotiations or he will be defeated in the long run.
“What we DO get upset about is the double standard. While many folks are giving Obama a pass, there was no such pass for Dubya.”
In the aftermath of 9/11, we all knew, even outside America, that the world could expect a declared war against the perpetrators of the attack. Originally, I was all for the invasion of Afghanistan and on that matter was backing Bush the whole way. It was when his administration decided to assault Iraq, a state under a ruthless dictatorship but not in any way connected to the attacks, under later proved false or dubious pretenses did I begin to question the actions and rationalle of the US government. And later, when I learned more about the politic of Afghanistan and exactly who we in the West had supported to create the historically-impossible central Afghan government, I daresay that he completely lost me.
I cannot speak for the American Left, for I am not of them. But I do believe that, except for a few diehard fanatics, if Obama commits the same calamitous blunders that Bush did, he will be deservingly cast into the same Dustbin of History that collects the likes of George W Bush.
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pino, I read a lot of lefty blogs and am not finding any support for Obama for this action. In fact, I’d say much of the left is enraged.
We didn’t give Dubya a pass for Iraq (going into Afghanistan was universally acceptable is my memory) – and in that case we sent an army of invason. So even though Obama is getting no pass here, they’re hardly the same thing. Yet.
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I think that was a Libyan plane that was shot down but it is unclear if it was a pro-government or pro-rebellion pilot.
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Two days in, and it is already obvious that it was marketed with false pretenses. As if some of us didn’t know.
We are now at a point in our nation’s history where war is waged on the whim of high office, just on the merit of that office. Our motives are only as strong as the character of our President. Our kids are off to war, and our President is off to Rio, kids in tow, and the in-law providing daycare.
Did I say something about character? Oops, sorry. What was I thinking?
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Actually, I don’t think there were any pretenses this time – I don’t htink our own government is clear about why we’re there.
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Ms. Holland ,
” I remember when Bush was elected in ’00, my brother looked at Bush/Cheney and said ‘well so begins the last desperate gasp of the fossil fuel based economy.’ The stuff will either run out or get too expensive (extraction, wars, 9/11) for us. But in the way of the West since 1980 or so, we’ll just ignore it till it bites us in the butt.
Remember Reagan ripping the solar panels off the roof of hte White House when he came into office. ”
Yes if only,,,, they had listened,,,,,,,none of these oil wars would have happened . 🙂
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Seriously Alan? WE are importing twice as much oil now as when Carter was prez. (Hint: it wasn’t Obama who made that difference).
Now I suppose you will tell me that Democrats kept us from drilling.
But the point isn’t how much oil we produce – we can’t keep it anyway. Oil is fungible and it’s a global market. All we can do is lessen our dependence on oil period. To get there, we need gov’t investment, research and willing capital. But we’ve not had any of that for 30 years.
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Ms. Holland,
Everything you say is nice , but green does not work . It just is not the answer . And yes if Barak the Great would just stop screwing around, we have plenty of oil . When Bush was in Democrats found ways to stop Bush from opening up more drilling . There is a lot of oil and natural gas that we can’t touch because of the green morons running this country . Yes, yes, yes your party is stopping this country from being energy independent .
While the green idiots were subsidizing worthless green technology, evil American Corporations have invented new drilling to release known oil and gas in the Bakken and Marcellus Shale deposits . When you combine those with the offshore places your hero has closed because he is too stupid to know how to plug a little hole, we could be just about independent of our Arab friends .
Right now we have so much natural gas that we could become an exporter .
No Mam we are not running out of fossil fuel . We would just rather have it shipped in by tanker than have American workers drill for it .
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[he is too stupid to know how to plug a little hole] Really? Obama was the problem? Alan, sometimes I think there’s no hope for you that you could reduce something as devastating as that oil spill to an Obama insult.
By the way, we ship our oil out of the country every bit as much as we ship oil in. If we opened drilling further (which Obama has done, he only put a moratorium on deep water drilling – not a ban, a moratorium) it would add to the world market supply, which the developing world is goblling up more and more. China however, is smarter – they are moving like gangbusters with alternative energy research and manufacturing. They’re cornering the market on windmills because we let htat opportunity get away.
And why the heck are you fond of oil? Why do you defend oil? Why in the world would you oppose research into less intrustsive, cleaner energy?
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Ms. Holland ,
I truly love this kind of argument . You bring up a lot of points I wish to clarify .
” Alan, sometimes I think there’s no hope for you that you could reduce something as devastating as that oil spill to an Obama insult. ”
Now be honest . If Bush or Sarah Palin were President when Barak Petroleum had it’s lil accident, would you have blamed them for allowing it ? After all, the President appoints the head of the agency that hires the inspectors who did not have the technical expertise to know what the heck BP was doing .
After the blow out, a real President would have called in the best military and industry experts from around the world . President Obama did not do that . A real President would have brought in all of the Governors of the affected states and had their state agencies coordinate with the Federal agencies. President Obama seemed to be at war with Louisiana’s Governor Jindal because he was a Republican .
” By the way, we ship our oil out of the country every bit as much as we ship oil in. If we opened drilling further (which Obama has done, he only put a moratorium on deep water drilling – not a ban, a moratorium) it would add to the world market supply, which the developing world is goblling up more and more. ”
Once again you have taken a fact and clouded the issue . Yes some of the oil we produce on the left coast goes to Japan . It is more efficient and the net effect is the same as if all the oil were used in the US . The problem is how many US dollars go out of the country for foreign oil . If we sell X amount of oil to Japan and buy the equivalent from Saudi Arabia, then the dollars coming in from Japan balance the dollars going out . Simple .
” If we opened drilling further (which Obama has done, he only put a moratorium on deep water drilling – not a ban, a moratorium) it would add to the world market supply, which the developing world is goblling up more and more. ”
Simply not accurate . President Obama is holding up deep water drilling, when we need it most . We need to go after every barrel . It takes on average 7 years to harvest oil from when you first decide to look for it . Long term your hero is killing us . This moratorium has the same effect as a ban . Oil companies cannot commit the $ Billions needed to produce oil in 7 years when you have a President who first hates oil, then says we have to increase domestic production. Which is it ?
As far as the developing world gobbling up supply, wouldn’t it be good if the US were getting those petro dollars, instead of Iran ? Again, we are not running out. We are just being governed by idiots .
” China however, is smarter – they are moving like gangbusters with alternative energy research and manufacturing. They’re cornering the market on windmills because we let htat opportunity get away. ”
Again, you misunderstand what is really going on . Ahh yea China is cornering the market on windmills . Just like they cornered the market on plastic junk . They are putting the European solar and windmill manufacturers out of business by under selling them . They sell them to idiot countries that subsidize them . It does not mean that deploying this junk is saving any oil, gas, or coal .
Much of the solar and and wind capacity in China is sitting idle. It ain’t hooked up to anything . You still do not get it . To the Chinese this is a make work program . It is to keep unemployment down . The Chinese have so many of our dollars that it pays them to pay people to make crap that will never be worth it .
” And why the heck are you fond of oil? Why do you defend oil? Why in the world would you oppose research into less intrustsive, cleaner energy? ”
Because oil actually works . It has real value in relation to it’s cost . Why do you hate oil ? I do not oppose research . I oppose deployment . I oppose deliberately driving up the cost of efficient energy, just so inefficient energy can pretend to compete . Economically it is stupid .
You do win on cleaner, but not on intrusive . To produce mass amounts of Solar energy you have to cover many acres of open land with solar panels . They call it footprint . For the same amount of energy, your green energy has a Sasquatch shoe compared to conventional energy’s munchkin shoe .
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